Detective Chief Superintendent Angie Chapman: the adrenaline kept you going

Detective Chief Superintendent Angie Chapman - I did ten years in covert, but not all as a surveillance officer, and I would say you have kind of, the highest of the highs, the lowest of the lows, but the adrenaline kept you going, there was nothing really more exciting than being on the move following the target and, seeing them commit a crime in front of you, means you were good at your job, because they didn't know you were there.

Despite growing up in a family where my dad was a uniform police officer for his whole career, I never thought ‘oh yeah, I'm going to follow in dad's footsteps’, but I wouldn't change it for anything.

There's just that opportunity that exists and the broad spectrum of roles and responsibilities and things that you can do in the organisation. You can constantly stretch yourself and keep learning, you can develop expertise in the role, and you can balance it with family, flexible working and changing direction as well.

We have an awful lot of our male colleagues that are very engaged with the Kent Network of Women because their daughters, their sisters and their family members could also be part of the family and I think, for us, you have your family at home, but you definitely do have that family within policing.

It's helped me grow as an individual, with the things that we see, the things that we do, the tests that we probably put ourselves under because we are dealing with risk, we are dealing with difficult situations, we're there for others. I think it teaches you some brilliant life skills, and I would just say it's a brilliant place to work as a female as well. [Music].

Kulbir Pasricha, Diverse Community Engagement and Relations Manager - Welcome to More Than the Badge, a Kent Police podcast. My name is Kulbir Pasricha, and I will be your host. Today's episode is with Detective Chief Superintendent Angie Chapman. Welcome to the podcast Angie.

Detective Chief Superintendent Angie Chapman - Thank you very much.

Kulbir Pasricha – Angie, what inspired you to pursue a career in policing?

Detective Chief Superintendent Angie Chapman – So, if I'm really honest it wasn't my dream job. I am by my nature very nosy. I went to university because that's what everyone was doing when I was at school, and very quickly realised I'm a bit of a home girl, I was very homesick, I dropped out so I could be closer to home, and then started to look at a career in policing whilst waiting to rejoin my uni, because I had to start again, and it was just probably that nosiness and that interest in what's going on, and I've never really thought much more about the fact that both my parents were in policing.

My dad was a PC, a rural PC for 21 years and then retired on ill health, and my mum's a CSI (crime scene investigator) but I never ever felt that I was following their footsteps, it's just something almost out the blue, post uni, and I didn't then go to university so, I am a dropout, but I pursued that career choice. It took me more than one chance to be successful. So, when I didn't get in the first time, I applied for a job with CSU, and was, I did that for a year, and then was successful, and probably haven't looked back since, which is a bit corny, but it's definitely the truth.

Kulbir Pasricha – Brilliant, and when you say CSU, you mean the Community Safety Unit?

Detective Chief Superintendent Angie Chapman – So back then it was the Crime Support Unit or CJU, obviously had various, various names over the years, but yeah that gave me a bit of an understanding of policing as well. Understanding what was required with case files, and was another way in, so I think I'd still recommend to other people either if you're not successful first time, there's other ways in which you can join, you can become a detention officer, a special, a PCSO, but that gives you that grounding and a bit of exposure to policing, and then hopefully makes you successful the next time, so yeah I was determined to join.

Kulbir Pasricha – When did you join Kent Police?

Detective Chief Superintendent Angie Chapman – So, January 1996, was my start date, now have recently clocked up 29 years.

Kulbir Pasricha – Congratulations! So, tell me a bit about how your career's evolved over the years.

Detective Chief Superintendent Angie Chapman – So, I started as everyone else probably do still start now. Started on uniform, my first station was Margate, and at that time thought that was a really good place, to learn the trade. Back then, it was a busy area, as I think it still is now, quite unique with some of the criminals that we used to pursue, cat Bs as they were then, but actually coincidentally, following sort of the intelligence model that we've now got back, now with the National Intelligence Model, but actually very quickly knew that I was more interested in crime, CID, and within two years I was working in CID, but then within four years I was on the surveillance team, which was probably one of my most enjoyable parts of my career, particularly at the constable level because I think that's where you still got quite a lot of an opportunity to diversify and do different roles. So, I did ten years in covert but not all as a surveillance officer, and I would say you have kind of the highest of the highs, the lowest of the lows, because you've got to be able to be bored, you've got to work long hours, be very hungry at times, very tired. I used to get the surveillance headache because you could be moving around for a long time and not have any opportunity to eat or drink and then you'd get a long period of doing nothing, but the adrenaline kept you going, there was nothing really more exciting than being on the move, following the target and seeing them commit a crime in front of you, means you were good at your job, because they didn't know you were there, and that's the whole point.

So, that then moved me into working in intelligence, and seeking promotion whilst in those teams, and then moved back to division as a detective inspector, and that's the bit where the leadership part for me first, made me realise that actually I had a lot more responsibility, and I went back to the division, not really having been there for a long time, and people looking to me for the answers, and I now use that to help others because actually what I didn't do back then was ask enough questions. I thought I needed to go there and be the inspector, and everyone come to me and I know all the answers, and then moved on in my career as I had other promotions, realised that, it's not there's nothing wrong with asking for help and if you don't know something, you can get some tactical advice and you can still make the decisions. So, I probably made that rank a bit harder for me than I needed to. I stayed an inspector for quite some time because I had a young family, and I wanted to then balance what I was doing with my children and work, and then moved into Public Protection and Criminal Justice, Custody and more recently where I am now as a divisional commander.

Kulbir Pasricha – And you are a role model for other female police officers and police officers in general, but also, I'd say across the policing community.

So, Angie, as a senior leader, as a divisional commander, a detective chief superintendent, tell me a bit more about what does it involve.

Detective Chief Superintendent Angie Chapman – So, responsibility for a geographical area, so for me I've got the north of the county, but in charge of the assets that really deliver policing within that area and that can range from community policing, engagement, dealing with criticality, investigating crime, and that frontline response.

So, on a daily basis I'll have a briefing in the morning in relation to the incidents that have taken place overnight, where we need to prioritise our staff and where we need to make sure that we've got people deployed to the calls and the incidents that need us the most, but then also looking at community policing, the engagement, and the neighbourhood policing model that's recently been brought in.

So, we're seeing an awful lot of benefit from having beat officers working within our communities, and for me, that means that they've got that opportunity to have the balance between engagement ,and proactivity. We've seen some really good responses from business owners across the division where actually they really recognise that visible footprint within the communities, as well as the engagement opportunities within schools and the other communities as well. So, it's all encompassing, we work really closely with some of the other policing commands and divisions and directorates, but we'll really be, I'm responsible for the teams that turn up at the calls. We then start an investigation and then it might sit with my teams and it may obviously need that additional support from specialists, and as a divisional commander, it's my role to bring the staff together, make sure that they are delivering the way I want them to, in line with the pledge¹, but also with the right attitudes and behaviours so, that actually, they're going out there, they look smart and they do a good job and they respond to the calls, but I'm also trying to build up our community engagement so, we know that we've got an awful lot of work to do still with our communities and our diverse communities, but north division has got a rich community for us to actually pave the way probably for the rest of the county. We've got some brilliant events that we had last year to celebrate Black History Month, and we're now working really closely with key community members on the Police Race Action Plan², but then also within our schools and looking at how we can take preventative action, community policing, prevent knife crime and actually look at that vulnerability and exploitation. So, it's very wide, but actually I'm then supported by a brilliant team so I've got a crime command and I've also got local policing teams, and working closely with them to make sure that they're performing and they're doing what they need to do to deliver that service, and how you bring together engagement, proactivity, intelligence and responding to the public and being a positive, visible, engaging police service in north division, and I have to say I absolutely love my job. I love it! [Smiling].

Kulbir Pasricha – It's good, and I was going to say key to delivering, the key to success of what we do in policing, I'm sure you'll agree, but I'll ask you to comment on this, is around our working in partnership. Partnership with the other agencies, communities, but what's your view and your experience on that?

Detective Chief Superintendent Angie Chapman – It's so positive and, we know that actually there's so many problems that we can't solve on our own so, we're so well supported when it comes with working with the fire service, with the ambulance service, but also with schools, colleges, social services. Our MPs are a really good way of us telling us what the community are worried about, because then we need to build that trust and confidence and manage their expectations but try to meet their expectations, and that joint working is absolutely key across a broad spectrum, particularly within schools and communities as well.

So, we've got joint working through our Community Safety Units, we've got community liaison officers who are then really, a brilliant source of advice if there's something that we're not quite sure about, but we've also got a lot of support from religious locations as well and some really key community leaders that help us not only deliver some safeguarding, reassure the public, they can take the messages away from us in relation to whether or not people are worried about policing in their area, but then we can work with the council. So, if we identify an area that might need extra lighting for example because, you know people are worried about violence against women and girls, then we can push back on partners and actually look at how we work together with them and where we've got joint aims and where we've got barriers to actually how we can deliver that service. So, it really does complement policing and hopefully policing work really closely with partners to make sure that we can do that.

Kulbir Pasricha – You mentioned about culture, about the, being able to ask questions, and being able to be yourself, and how important is that?

Detective Chief Superintendent Angie Chapman – It was a harder lesson, or a slower lesson for me to pick up on because, it just took me a bit long, I felt like I ought to be able to do this and I've got this, and I think that was the bit that I would now say to people is just, I didn't recognise I was a role model, and there's nothing wrong with looking for a network at whatever level you're at and asking for help, and just realising that we've all been there as well because you just don't, you don't really appreciate that, and whatever level and whatever rank you are and whatever role you're doing, there's always a learning curve and there's nothing wrong with being in that position, and that's definitely something that I've worked on much more, more recently.

Kulbir Pasricha – That's good to hear. I know you touched on some of your personal life, you’re a working carer, I'm going to ask you a few more questions about that in a moment, but before I do, how do you feel the role of women in policing has evolved throughout your career?

Detective Chief Superintendent Angie Chapman – So, I remember my, meeting with my chief inspector when I was due to be signed off on my probation, and I went in to see him, and as a youngish female officer he said to me “so what are we going to do about your face?” and I said “pardon?”. He said “well, you know you're, you're a pretty, young, attractive individual, how's anybody going to take you seriously out on the street?” and at that point, I think I thought ‘well, that's negative on me and I need to do something, and I need to prove myself, and I need to work harder because obviously if he doesn't take me seriously, nobody else will’.

When I look back on that now, it made me more determined and it made me want to try a lot harder, but I'm also really thankful that we've come so far, that actually I was probably one of two female officers on my section at the time, there was some of that sexism, let's say, of course it is. I was treated slightly differently being the female on the team, and now, I would like to think that those comments wouldn't happen, and actually I think we're on a level playing field, we are very well represented, between male and female colleagues within the ranks as well, although we know we still want to continue to develop in that area, but we've probably, in my time, moved on from us sort of looking after the children and doing the roles that would be traditionally for females, but actually looking at what we've got to offer, so having female officers on the Surveillance Team was positive because traditionally criminals might not think that we would do that kind of role, so we were probably able to blend into the background a little bit better, and I think when you come to command and resilience, and then looking at decision making, as well as negotiation, there's just something that we've also got to offer which can be our strength, and I think then recognising how well valued we are, and how many more females there are in the organisation, police officers and police staff, we all bring something to the table, we've all got our individual skills and that's not necessarily based on gender, that's background, upbringing, and probably education as well, so, it's moved on incredibly, and when I joined I didn't think that I would be ending my career as a chief superintendent, or, you know potentially more depending on where my career goes, so very, very fortunate in my view to have had the career that I've had so far. [Smiling].

Kulbir Pasricha – and like you say, some of the comments were made in the past, we've come a long way, and I think the important bit is knowing what we're doing, the strong culture change, things will continue to evolve.

Detective Chief Superintendent Angie Chapman – Absolutely, and I think for me, a watershed moment was the publication of the Angiolini report³, where when I saw the impact that had on communities, when we saw some of the events that unfolded in the media, and the impact it was having on women and girls, I've always been the sort of person that would see the media and think ‘that would never happen to me’, but family members were the sort of people that were thinking ‘that could be me’ and I then realised that actually in the role I'm doing, and in the organisation as well, I can still engage with the community through my family, and I wanted to make sure that those sorts of things wouldn't happen to any of the members of the community that I'm living in or serving, so actually it drove me to do a little bit more and to work a bit harder, but inside and outside the organisation to develop a bit more of a sisterhood, because I think it's really important that we've still got upstanders but we've also got the female superintending ranks that are looking out for others and making sure that others won't be treated the way we might have done, in our career in the past, but also looking out for our community members as well.

Kulbir Pasricha – So what kind of challenges do you think you face through your career and how have you overcome them?

Detective Chief Superintendent Angie Chapman – I genuinely think I've been really fortunate. I don't underestimate how lucky I've been to have flexible working. I've raised two very strong independent female daughters whilst I've been employed, and I've had a flexible working pattern and I've continued to be promoted whilst raising a family, and that for me is, I've not, I've never stopped living one life or another, but I have kind of balanced it with sometimes I need some focus at home, and sometimes at work, and the challenges have been when to get that balance right.

Personal challenges probably in seeking promotion and then suffering setbacks, and then trying to understand what I might need to do to get promoted, and definitely having conversations that were honest conversations with line managers saying to me, there's more that you need to do when I felt I was ready, and finding that really hard, but later in my career recognising how important that was and now how much I value it. So, I would, I would say that my promotion journey is the bit that I found challenging, but then much more rewarding, and valuing it so much more when I have been successful, but definitely doing it at the same time as raising a family.

Kulbir Pasricha – Yeah, and you mentioned the family so I will bring that question in now. So, you're a working carer, and it's very important that you know people's different experiences they bring, different walks of life, diversity of thought, diversity of experiences, is key to the success of what we do as part of the Kent Police Pledge, protecting victims and instrumental in actually getting that trust and confidence from communities as well.

What would you say, is important or you'd like to highlight in terms of you as working carer. What is, what support have you received for, I mean for Kent, I would say they said nationally Carers UK, mention about one in eight being a carer. I think there's much small much, much more prevalence as you can see in society nowadays, and even in policing, it's probably more likely one in four, one in six, but what would your main points be, so people can know you can be a working carer and join Kent Police.

Detective Chief Superintendent Angie Chapman – I think exactly that is the opportunities that exist in the organisation. We've really, really come a long way with reasonable adjustments, flexible working, agile working, which you know we often, you know, look at the positives of Covid, because that opened up a lot of opportunities for people in many different ways, and then the education of line managers to really understand that you can still get a lot from people, and it's not necessarily the presentism in the workplace that makes the difference, it’s people being able to feel confident enough that they're supported, and then they can give their all at work, and I think understanding, that people often will walk through the door, and they put on their work face, and we have no clue what they might have been dealing with before they've come to work on a daily basis, and having the events that we've had in the organisation, our staff support associations that across the board help people in many ways, whether it's caring for children and caring for people with disabilities. So, I would just say that we need to ask if we're not really sure, because the opportunities are there, and the organisation is set up to be able to provide opportunities for people. Our promotion processes, our lateral development, the different roles that we can do, and the direction that you can take your career in, which actually allows you to make different choices based on caring commitments, but equally knowing when you need to maybe take a step back at work, because you need to prioritise home, and vice versa. I think those opportunities are there, and it's just still continuing to grow and I think the support networks that we've got are thriving, and those conversations are happening on a daily basis, and I think that's really positive.

Kulbir Pasricha – and this is really good to hear, because the advice and early signposting support, is key to actually someone being the best version of themselves as well, so that's great.

Can you share the most memorable experience for you in your career?

Detective Chief Superintendent Angie Chapman – So, as a DI, I implemented our Child Sexual Exploitation Team, and it was the first intelligence-led one in the country, and then that was on the back of some very large scale investigations that had happened nationally, and when we first set the team up, we spoke very much about how actually you know, you don't really know what's there until you start looking for it, and it was quite difficult to start with to actually see what the results were looking like, because prosecutions back then were very difficult to achieve, and I was trying to send a message to my line managers that actually the measure of success for the team was that we were building the intelligence picture, we were uncovering it, but that we were supporting victims, and if we could help the victims change their way of life and to escape the exploitation, that was a result, not necessarily a prosecution and a conviction, and we had a victim who we'd been building the intelligence on for some time, and she was a frequent misper (missing person), and on one occasion she was missing and we were trying lots of different methods to try to find her. We had a phone number for her and so I just sent her a text, and just said ‘wherever you are, all we need to know is if you're safe, then then let us know’ and she called me, and she said “I only called you because your message sounded really kind and I trusted you” and we worked with her then, for a period of time, and we worked with a lot of survivors of CSE (child sexual exploitation) where we started to understand what the tipping point, could be for them to try to escape the exploitation, and then for me two years later when she sent me a photograph of her baby and said that she'd settled down and she escaped exploitation, and she was now the proud mother of a beautiful, beautiful baby, was just a completely different moment for me. I'd spent a lot of time as I said, working in covert policing and intelligence, chasing criminals, and actually I hadn't really worked in an area where I was looking after victims and that for me was where I felt I’d made a difference.

Kulbir Pasricha – and what a powerful one as well because, the feedback from that victim, what difference you've made, and had you not been there they may not have made that contact, so it's thanks to you for being able to be approachable and you put that humanity back into that contact, and how nice to hear that actually what's happened all those years later.

Detective Chief Superintendent Angie Chapman – Yeah.

Kulbir Pasricha – but you safeguarded that individual, and that's a that's, what we're all about, that's what this is about so, would you say that's your proudest moment as a female police officer as well, or your proudest moment in policing?

Detective Chief Superintendent Angie Chapman – Probably in policing. Investigatively, that for me, you know that, and it was a turning point, because it was actually supporting victims is as rewarding as locking up the baddies, so that was for me was a real change.

I think as a female in policing, I think starting to realise that, I can be a role model and I probably didn't recognise it until perhaps becoming a superintendent, and then starting to support others but recognising, that I can have that influence and, I'm able to make a difference, and when I became the Chair of enable I was, and that's our staff support association to support people with disabilities and working carers, and I really wanted to start to, make a change, with how we're supporting people in the organisation, and I took quite a brave step then I believe to talk about my personal experiences, because I wanted to open the door to others, and probably wear my heart on my sleeve, but tried to break down those barriers, and I still went into a presentation with quite a bit of trepidation about whether it was the right thing to do, and whether I would be judged, and what the reaction would be, and it was a Teams briefing at the time, because we were just still in Covid, but as I was talking and I was very, very nervous the sidebar to Teams as you can imagine, the messages were pinging in so quickly, that overwhelmingly I realised the difference that I'd made, and whilst it wasn't necessarily because I was a female senior leader, the experiences that I was talking about was probably very much related to that, and just having that impact and reaching out to people and recognising that it made a difference that I was talking about those issues, as a senior leader was where I then realised that I could probably help people more, but recognise that actually I think probably to a degree that promotion and the rank makes a difference, because I know now if I heard other people talking like that when I was a more junior officer, you do still think, actually there's opportunity available for me and, hopefully we're human.

Kulbir Pasricha – Yeah, and you've mentioned about lived experiences, not just from our own colleagues so listening to you people feel they can come forward and talk about their experiences that's how we live, learn, that's how we grow, and that's how we become the best versions of ourselves, and the same with bringing in members of the community and listening to their lived experiences as well.

Going to touch on, so International Women's Day, 8th of March, I think it should be every day actually [laughing] everyone's responsibility, but how do you think, that day, so International Women's Day has helped around of celebrations of women in policing, what kind of things do you think has it helped with?

Detective Chief Superintendent Angie Chapman – So, I think internally is first of all, I think again, building that sisterhood to a degree, I know for us Kent network of Women has been there for a long time, and that we were starting to grow, to try to help females reach out to each other, seek some support within the workplace, but they've really evolved to also celebrate what we can bring to the organisation, but also internal and external influences around how can we tackle some of the difficult issues, you know they've done a fantastic job in celebrating promotion, lateral development success, and having that positive impact on recruitment, but tackling difficult issues, such as sexism and vawg (violence against women and girls), but by having the celebration, we are then reaching out to a lot of people because if females within the organisation talk positively about it to their families, you have that knock on effect that actually they recognise that it is a good place to work and there's a career opportunity for females and lots of opportunities within Kent Police, but then also we have that influence externally when we promote the good work we do, and I think last years for example, when we saw the passing out parade, and we celebrated the female recruits, it just is another reminder that actually we've all got something to offer, and I think it builds on the camaraderie, the sisterhood, the support, but we have an awful lot of our male colleagues that are very engaged with the Kent Network of Women because, their daughters their sisters and their family members could also be part of the family, and I think for us you have your family at home, but you definitely do have that family within policing and however corny it sounds, I am bought into that, and I genuinely believe in it.

Kulbir Pasricha – You mentioned the importance of family so, how have you managed the busy demands of work and home, caring. How have you managed that, what would you say the key to success has been?

Detective Chief Superintendent Angie Chapman – Definitely the support inside and outside of work.

So, I'm the proud owner of, [laughing] twin girls, and I, as I said, I definitely think I was fortunate enough to have flexible working when they were very young, because I chose to be, a working parent. I wanted to have a career and have children, but I was open-minded enough to recognise there were times when I might have had to make different decisions at work about opportunities, because there were some jobs that required more of my time and if I was finding that difficult, and thinking that I needed to be at home, then being at home is where I needed to be.

My husband, definitely. So, we've very much been a tag team, amongst our careers whether or not, it was an opportunity for him to go for promotion, he's now retired, but he was also in the police, so two working parents in the police I think also can sometimes be a benefit, because you understand how it is, but could be a challenge because of the demands of the job. So, the way I managed it is just to recognise that, and know when family need to be my priority, and when I've got that flexibility for work, to be the priority. The tag team that I've had at home, as to who's taken the back seat maybe at work. My mum was an amazing carer for our daughters, so that I could actually increase my hours as I've gone on, and as they become became more independent, but also the support of my daughters because, as I've then, become promoted and they've started to be more aware of the work I do, they've got an interest in it, but they supported it and they also knew, probably when to go to dad [laughing] rather than come to mum, and I think by doing that, they've got a really strong work ethic as well because they've seen mum and dad working really hard, and then being honest with my line managers. So, asking for help when I need it, but also recognising when I need to as I say, probably take a step back at work, and as my daughters have now grown older and moved on, I now find myself working and caring for my parents, and that was a very different situation for me because, I suppose I've often found myself sitting in a meeting, almost sitting on the edge of my seat because I don't know if my phone's going to go because I don't know if anybody needs me, whether it's you know one of my daughters, or my parents, but being open and honest with line managers and people that are working with me, actually helped, because then they don't think I'm being disruptive and they understand if I need to leave a meeting, take a call, or work from home for a day because I'm needed elsewhere, so I think the organisation is brilliant at that, but I've then been very open with the people that I'm working with to get that support, but also balance it. I hope I've done it well.

Kulbir Pasricha – You have, and I think if anything, you've put some messages very clearly about, why policing and why Kent Police, should be an employer of choice, so thank you for that.

Women in policing I think it's come such a long way, still way to go, but come a long way, so we go back 1900s look at the first woman police officer, Eden Smith back in 1915 and then we had the first black female officer Sislin Fay Allen, and as we sort of look at all the changes and the differences that people have made, what would you say are, around the representation different ranks and grades as we call it, how would you say, there are, what kind of initiatives are there, to encourage the promotion and increased representation at those ranks?

Detective Chief Superintendent Angie Chapman – So, I think we're really fortunate that we've got initiatives for development. So, we have Develop You⁴, we've got attachment opportunities, coaching, mentoring, our staff support networks. I think there's an awful lot of out there, but I think the individuals also need to know that it's there, and that it exists to be able to look for that help and take it, but the responsibility also sits with others who have benefited from it, to tell people that it's available. I, until my most recent role, I probably didn't really understand the benefit of, how much of a difference engagement with our communities can make as well, to being able to not only recruit, but then recruit, retain, and promote, and since moving to become a divisional commander, I've been engaged in quite a few community events, and I just, really underestimated the power that engaging with young communities, and going to events in full uniform, and showing that we're human, engaging in dance events, celebration events, community events, speaking openly about the policing journey, we start to have that impact, because we engage, not only will it help us build intelligence, report crime and increase the trust and confidence in the community in us, but hopefully, start to build on our recruitment opportunities, and then when we have recruited individuals from diverse backgrounds and female individuals from diverse backgrounds, we've then got to work hard at showing them that there's opportunities out there, so then we need to talent spot, and also take them on the journey with us. So, using the people that are currently female leaders in the organisation, and we're all leaders in our field, but looking at what that buddying looks like, what the support looks like, promotion classes, interview practice, lateral development, reasonable adjustments, but also understanding that there's probably a, everyone's different in the way they approach their career, but I have seen that there's probably differences with the way some females might approach their career opportunities and I know we've often spoken at a lot of events that we've been at, and we talk about ten role requirements for a job, and perhaps some of our male colleagues will go ‘well I can do seven out of ten of those, I'm going to put my hat in the ring’, whereas females might look at it and go ‘oh, I've got three missing and I really need to get the extra three before I can apply’. We've all been to lots of events where we've spoken about that, and, I think those celebration events and conferences help us to break down those barriers, and say actually we've all got something to give, let's go for it, be your genuine self, but those ways in which you can test those boundaries, go from an attachment, go to a different role, try it out, buy before you try, see how you get on, but there's also external opportunities that I think we don't look at and I was really fortunate to go on the Aspire Course, at the College of Policing, a couple of years ago, and that's some personal investment in me because it helped me understand what makes me tick, so I can then apply that to the sort of leader that I want to be, and how I engage with others as well, so I just think, there's so many opportunities out there and we're again so fortunate that we can tap into lots of different things depending on, again, our education, our learning, our career history, and our background.

Kulbir Pasricha – Thank you, and I think where you mentioned around communities, the police are the public, and the public are the police, is still as true today as it was so many years ago.

Where you've mentioned around all those various opportunities, we're still open to listening to others, other ideas that come from our colleagues as well, but positive action⁵ and all the other points that you mention are the way to go forward so we can continue to grow.

So, Angie can you tell me what you find most rewarding about your role?

Detective Chief Superintendent Angie Chapman – I think, seeing the difference that we make, however corny again that sounds, but, through various formats.

So, whether or not it's the success that our staff have within the organisation, only last week I was there at the passing out parade⁶ and actually just, looking at the success that we've had, the recruits that we've got, and the landmark that they've reached in their career at that point which is you know a very small portion of their career, I find that rewarding to be able to go along as a senior officer and be there to welcome new recruits coming to my division to work, but equally I think investigative outcomes, and it's not necessarily the convictions but, being able to run a really good investigation and then update a victim, and then actually get those responses from them which is ‘well, I know that it's not going to go to court, but actually you did what I needed, and you were there when I needed you’ and that probably would have been the personal rewards that I've seen in my time as an investigator, and now, I think the most rewarding part for me is leading a division, feeling that actually I can make a difference and I can influence, impact positively on the culture, but understand how I can try to drive the message home, which is completely in line with the pledge because, if we are doing our jobs properly we're delivering that service, and then we're going to increase the trust and confidence, but actually what I find rewarding is trying to deliver that message to new recruits, frontline officers, and help them have penny drop moments about what it actually means to do that. So go out there, go to the call, talk to the victim, get an account, because that means we were there when they called us and then when we get the good feedback and we get some positive outcomes, for me that's actually shows that they've listened and they've understood, and actually we've still delivered that service.

When I'm then talking to family members or friends, and they actually have got a good impression of the police service and they want to talk about what we do, I spent a long time pretending not to be a police officer because of covert policing, so therefore I spent a long time hiding what I did, but now I'm so proud of the job I've got, I find every day exciting, still, after all these years, really proud of what I do and actually I'm not hiding what I do anymore and I'm quite happy to talk to, you know, people in the village about what I do, that's been quite a moment for me and that's probably been something that's only happened quite recently.

Kulbir Pasricha – and I can actually feel the way you speak, and the way you talk about your career in policing, how much it's fulfilled, you know, you're totally satisfied and in fact more, and that's really, really good to hear, not many people can say that.

I mentioned about role models earlier on so, I'm going to put you on the spot a little bit here, who has inspired you?

Detective Chief Superintendent Angie Chapman – Oh well, like you say I have spoken about it a couple of times probably through some of the presentations I've done, but Michelle Obama for me is somebody who is very inspiring.

I listened to her autobiography, and one, the way she delivered it, because actually she's just got a lovely way of presenting, but she's an individual that's had three very different careers, she was brave enough to change direction for the challenge, and was successful in all of them, and this was all before she became the first lady, but in her book she talks about how much she supports diversity. She really is passionate about helping women and girls, and I've got her little book of quotes at home, I wouldn't be able to get it word perfect but actually for me she says ‘recognise the people that have helped you and how many times someone's opened a door for you, and then realise that you can also let down the ladder to others’ and I've started to do that more and more’ because actually we all need a bit of help’ and if I hadn't been helped along my way I wouldn't be where I am today as well so’ I think she's fabulous.

Kulbir Pasricha – I know you mentioned about the case earlier on, and it stays with me ‘cause the difference you made to that young person, mentioned about exploitation, is there any other case that you want to mention?

Detective Chief Superintendent Angie Chapman – I think, being a young investigator when I first joined CID, and investigating death, which you know is part, unfortunately, part of our job, but not necessarily particular cases, but just understanding the impact that we have, and as a young PC, having to do the knock on the door in the middle of the night to deliver some, you know tragic news to individuals, and how compassion is very much a part of our role, through to investigating sad deaths of individuals who are particularly vulnerable in the community and having to actually do the evidence gathering in relation to the reason why they might not have succeeded in society, and then more recently going to the Coroners Court, linked to somebody who died in our police cells and throughout all of those, actually the link for me is, trying to balance the job that we do, and what we need to do and where I think investigating death you need to switch off a little bit, and getting that balance right with the impact it has on the families, because and no matter what the circumstance is, somebody's lost their life and there are people who are left behind and that empathy and that compassion is really important, but sometimes taking the moral step to engage with the family and not hiding away from something that might be a bit uncomfortable, can actually make that traumatic experience much more manageable for them, and as we know, people only tend to call on the police when things aren't going very well for them, so we might become a little bit robotic with what we do, but, how we do it is going to make a really, really big impact on the families and the individuals. So, I haven't answered your question, because there isn't one case, but I think probably the theme for me is the bit that the CSE case is the one that sticks with me, but the nature of policing and how we approach members of the community and just understanding that there's always people behind everything, is the thing that there's lots of different pinch points where, I've had to think a little bit harder about what I'm doing.

Kulbir Pasricha – Yeah, so child sexual exploitation case is the poignant one, but thank you for sharing that because in a way you've actually talked about how you've looked at the opportunities over adversity when it comes to your career, you've talked about the highs and the lows of policing, I really appreciate you sharing that.

Would you say, and this going to change the subject slightly, would you say this was always your dream career?

Detective Chief Superintendent Angie Chapman – No, because I guess I say, you know, I’m a uni dropout, and whenever I was young, and it be ‘what you going to play today?’ I thought I was going to own a clothes shop or something, and despite growing up in a family where my dad was a uniform police officer for his whole career, I never thought ‘oh yeah, I'm going to follow in dad's footsteps’, but I wouldn't change it for anything.

Kulbir Pasricha – That's great to hear, really great, positive to hear.

So, in your list of things that you'd like to do in life, like you have, some people have bucket lists, what would you say, name one thing on there if you wish to share it.

Detective Chief Superintendent Angie Chapman – So, I constantly want to challenge myself. I always want to put myself outside my comfort zone, and I think still on my bucket list would be a skydive.

Kulbir Pasricha – How amazing. I've done one of those, but I would recommend it, something I was not wanting to do, but like you say it's the uncomfortable, but you only grow when you push those boundaries so.

Is there something you'd like the public to know about being a police officer?

Detective Chief Superintendent Angie Chapman – I think, there's, just that opportunity that exists, and the broad spectrum of roles and responsibilities and things that you can do in the organisation. So, I don't think there's many people that can almost change direction every couple of years if you choose to do so, and that's whether you are a police constable, a police staff member, there are just opportunities within the network, and within the organisation, and you can constantly stretch yourself and keep learning, you can develop expertise in the role, and I'm just not sure that that's as well-known as perhaps it could be. I think our advertising campaigns, our recruitment campaigns are much wider now so, actually I do think people understand that you can do different roles within our organisation, but actually the fact that you can have such a varied career and so many opportunities, and you can balance it with family, flexible working, and changing direction as well. I don't think that's, that well known.

Kulbir Pasricha – So, if I was to ask you what advice would you give to young women listening today, thinking about ‘I'm considering a career in policing’, what would you advise them?

Detective Chief Superintendent Angie Chapman – Go for it, because as I said, I wouldn't change it for a thing. I think the organisation is a brilliant place to work, and I think that there are so many opportunities for females as well, at whatever stage of your career, so you know there may be people that change direction at the age of 40 and still join Kent Police, there's so many different roles that we can still do, I think for me, it's helped me grow as an individual. I'm the youngest of my siblings and I think I'm probably the most grounded, and the one that everyone comes to for advice because I think, working in this organisation, and with the things that we see, the things that we do, the tests that we probably put ourselves under, because we are dealing with risk, we are dealing with difficult situations, we're there for others. I think it teaches you some brilliant life skills, and I would just say it's a brilliant place to work as a female as well.

Kulbir Pasricha – That's really amazing, thank you, and I think what we also need to remember with women considering a career in policing and it could be as a volunteer, it could be as a special constable, where we have got representation of females there as well, as a police community support officer, that is just a vast amount, and as I said at the beginning I'm a police staff, and sometimes when you join in one capacity, you may choose to divert and become a police officer later, or you may be happy with whatever you're doing, but thank you so much for your time today and really enjoyed listening to your journey and your lived experiences as a police officer, thank you.

Detective Chief Superintendent Angie Chapman – Thank you.

Kulbir Pasricha – If you've enjoyed this episode, don't forget to follow us on Instagram, X, Facebook and LinkedIn where we'll be posting previews of our upcoming episodes. You can watch this episode on our YouTube channel, and find out more about the variety of opportunities available by searching Kent Police careers. See you soon. [Music].

1. The Pledge – a commitment by the chief constable to provide high-quality policing services. Read more about The Pledge.
   
   
2. The Police Race Action Plan – aims to improve the relationship between the police and Black communities. It focuses on addressing disparities, building trust, anti-racism and collaboration. Read more about the Police Race Action Plan.
   
   
3. Angiolini report – The inquiry investigated serious issues within UK police forces. The report primarily focused on two major cases, the murder of Sarah Everard by Wayne Couzens, a Metropolitan Police Officer and the conduct of David Carrick, a Metropolitan Police Officer who was sentenced for multiple counts of rape.
   View further information about the Angiolini inquiry.

4. Develop You – in-house personal development opportunities for police officers and staff.
   
   
5. Positive Action – measures that Kent Police take to promote equality and diversity. It is designed to help individuals from underrepresented groups compete on equal terms with others.
   View further information about our Positive Action team.

6. Passing out parade – formal ceremony that marks the completion of police training.