I cried all the way to the station

Detective Sergeant Irene Rose-Muthanji: My first child was born in 1998, and I remember that was through the time of Stephen Lawrence, and I remember the positive action officer* telling me “You know what, if you don't join, how do you make the difference?”.

Working with communities, it's my favourite, one of the favourite things I love to do. The part of Kent where I worked, it was really, really diverse, really diverse, and it was trying to make sure that the people know that we're there to support, help in matters that some of them would never speak to police officers about.

Having come from Kenya, I understand when people are not open to police officers. When we were young [laughing], we used to be told ‘don't look at me,’ you know that was a sign of disrespect. Then you come to the UK and people say, ‘if you look away, you're hiding something’. When we learn things like that, I think that is what really gives us that wealth of being able to police, and to police the people that are out there. I think everywhere you go; people like to see people that look like them.

I remember when I was a school’s officer, got called to a school where we had a young boy that had been stealing. I thought ‘why does he keep looking at the clock,’ it's because, they would get a loaf of bread brought in, so that's what they used to have for their dinner, so if he wasn't there on time, to have his share, he would not have had anything, and we got him on breakfast in school in the morning, we got him on school lunches, we managed to speak to the other sibling schools. Mum didn't know that she can get support, she had lost her job, I think I cried all the way to the station.

We've got a very, very, very good senior leadership team that care about people, that have got open door policy, you know you can go and speak to them. It has got a good pension, [laughing] and you do make good friends, and you learn a lot. [Music].

PSE Kulbir Pasricha: Welcome to More Than the Badge, a Kent Police podcast. My name is Kulbir Pasricha, I'm a Community Engagement and Relations Manager and I'll be your host today.

Today's episode is with Detective Sergeant Irene Rose-Muthanji. Irene has worked for Kent Police for over 19 years and is currently working in Public Protection. Welcome to the podcast Irene.

Detective Sergeant Irene Rose-Muthanji: Thank you so much and thank you for having me here.

PSE Kulbir Pasricha: Can you tell me a bit more about how your career in policing started and, what inspired you to join?

Detective Sergeant Irene Rose-Muthanji: My career started in policing; I think it's through my father ‘cause my father was a police officer in Kenya. And so, of course I would see this very smart gentleman who was high in rank and had a driver and it was just fabulous, you know the lifestyle was really, really good, and I thought to myself, and he used to talk about the cases that he used to deal with because he was predominantly in traffic and it was really nice just to listen to what is actually going on, but it's not traffic as in ‘accident’, it was more of the corruption side of it and stopping criminals really on the roads. So it was really interesting, and that's what really kick started, and then of course I came to the UK, and I went to Durham University and I met a couple of friends there and, on one particular occasion, I came down to Kent and went to the Showgrounds, and there was a positive action officer there, and I got talking to him about it and he said, he talked about the career in Kent Police and how it is and how fantastic it is, and I told him “I'll think about it”. Went back north, and then I thought ‘erm why am I going back to Kent, when I can go to Durham?’ So started with Durham, wasn't happy with their process, and what whatever it was that didn’t make me happy, and I remembered what I was told in Kent, and I remember in Kent you were given a number, you were just a number, so they didn't know whether you're white, black, female, age, nothing came to it, you were just a number when you sat your exams, and for me, that made me feel like, actually when I get through and I sit on that seat, I have, I have got the same level, of having passed, like anybody else in the room, it wasn't because of anything, I was chosen to come into the policing, so I liked Kent so that's why I came down to Kent, and I joined Kent Police.

PSE Kulbir Pasricha: It's amazing! Policing in Kenya, policing in Kent. British police and obviously we police by consent as well and I still remember Sir Robert Peel's quote is in, ‘the police are the public, and the public are the police’ - absolutely key and we are seen as forward-thinking, and very advanced in police service across the world. When you saw what your father and you heard what his stories were, did that, is that the only thing that inspired you or do you, did you capture something from when you heard, you spoke to that positive action officer, what really brought it out, Kent’s where I want to be?

Detective Sergeant Irene Rose-Muthanji: It's a beautiful part of the country, so is Durham, but it is beautiful in Kent as well, but I think it was more of the fact that, when he spoke to me he we talked about 198 position or vacancies or positions, as a PC and he went into the various ones and I was thinking ‘I'd love to do that, I'd love to do that, oh my God, I'd love to do that!’ and there was so many variations so I thought ‘oh that's really fantastic’ and for me at the time I was working for n-power and what I was doing, I wasn't really satisfied with what I was doing ‘cause I was more in the human resources and it wasn't, yes it was the same thing day after day after day, but listening to what I was told by the positive action officer, I just thought this is mind-blowing, I definitely want to do this, and then on the same token I think as policing as a career, I think it came about because my first child was born in 1998, and I remember that was through the time of Stephen Lawrence, and I remember the perception and what was being heard through you know people were talking about, and what the communities were saying as well. My community were saying as well, ‘look at this, this is the same as how it is back at home’ or ‘it's not any better, or things like that’ and I remember the positive action officer telling me “you know what, if you don't join, how do you make the difference?”.

PSE Kulbir Pasricha: and that's powerful Irene because I think you join, and you join to make a difference, two decades nearly you've been in policing, and you're still as passionate as the 20 nearly 20 years ago!

Detective Sergeant Irene Rose-Muthanji: Oh, I am! [laughing].

PSE Kulbir Pasricha: So, tell me a bit more about how your career has evolved and what have you done in those years?

Detective Sergeant Irene Rose-Muthanji: So, very fresh coming in, and I remember it was, started at Kent Police College (KPC), but I was of the intake where we went to university came back out, went to area, back to university, back to area, it was the attachment. Was something similar to what nurses do, I think that's what they were trying to kind of use that, that learning process, and I remember sitting down there and thinking ‘cause by then I was of age, I was mature, I had a child [laughing], I was so, I was, would say ‘I was one of the oldest’ I could say if I could use that word, one of the mature ones in the class. I remember sitting down there and just thinking ‘what do I want to do?’ and I remember mapping, mapping my time and I thought ‘I'm going to have a five year stage, so I'm going to do something in the first five years, and then I'm going to do something else, and then I'm going to go into ranks, and this is what I'm going to do’ so actually Kulbir by me sitting here right now, I should actually be having three pips on my shoulder, just got the chevys at the moment, but I should have three pips, but it was, it was just that mapping out and just thinking ‘what do I do’ right, so from there of course then I knew I was, I knew I was not a uniform person, I knew I wanted to go into CID, I knew I wanted to investigate. I wanted the idea of going to courts, Crown Court I'd been to Crown Court on jury service I was thinking ‘I really want to do that, you know that's where I'd love to be one day’ in a police officer, you know not on the other side, but police officer side, and so I knew it was CID, I didn't want uniform.

So, within two years of my joining Kent Police, I had already gone into CID, and I wanted to do my NIE for my DCs, but then I fell pregnant, [laughing] then had a second baby, [laughing] and then of course, everything just took a little bit slower than I had anticipated, and then from there of course, I'm then looking at what do I do. So, redirection a little bit, where do I go from here, because of course at the time, we've become very good now with flexi working and encompassing that. At that time, it was a little bit difficult to get flexi, so you kind of had to look at the jobs that you could really do and do at the best that you can do without thinking about childcare and dropping kids to school and things like that. So anyway, so from there I thought ‘what shall I do next?’ and went into CID, CID was really good, stayed there for a couple of, for a couple of years, and from there I remember I did an attachment in SIU, which is your Public Protection, it's your, today, we call it PVP but it's soon going to be Public Protection, but yes so I went into SIU, just for a secondment, loved it, very, very much and I knew one day I want to come back and do this, and it was Child Protection at the time, and I thought I'm going to come back and do this, and then went back out of my secondment and went into CSU (Community Safety Unit), and whilst I was there, I got the role of schools officer, and a role I really, really, really enjoyed very much ‘cause I love kids, so it was for me, I was not coming to work, it was almost like as if I am, I'm going somewhere I really love ‘cause it was going to schools, it was talking to kids, it was and you could see the ones that really wanted to listen to you, and it was like I was shaping careers, I was shaping, I was bringing I was going these were the future Kent Police officers, you know and showing them the passion that we, you know we have, and making sure that they know about crimes and consequences and it was really, really good. Unfortunately, the school officer role was not centrally managed, so there, sometimes you were diverted to other things which was not really on the school kind of side, but nevertheless myself and the JFMP, joint family management program officer, we really worked hard to make sure that, we were not, and that was always my point, we're not criminalising children, we were teaching, and so that they knew that this is a mistake, I do not want this path, this is the path I want, and it was a very nice place to be. And then from there, I was lucky enough, I got a CLO (community liaison officer) role, which I again, working with communities, it's my favourite, one of the favourite things I love to do, and the part of Kent where I worked, it was really, really diverse, really diverse, and it was trying to make sure that the people that are there, out there that know about Kent Police and know that we're there to support, help, you know in, you know in matters that, some of them would never speak to police officers about, because having come from Kenya, I understand when people do, are not open to police officers, when people don't want to talk to police officers, you see a police officer come in that direction, you run the other direction because, they're bound to do something to you, stitch you up or you know, and that's not the way we are in Britain. So, it was trying to get people to understand that police come to us, we will help, we're there for you, we're there for your community.

I remember a group when I was as a CLO that I really worked really hard with and they were the groups from Eastern European who, at the time we had the children missing, and they were not reporting, but the reason for that was because they had had information from their end, and I and it was on their radio about the fact that, if you report your child missing, the police take your child away, and that was not the case. So, trying to educate them, trying to make sure that they understand, because we were really concerned that when the children are missing, they were being exploited, and that's not what we wanted, and I worked through a church where they were, where they used to congregate, and I remember I could I used to go there sit down, and slowly by slowly they started noticing that I am there, they started talking to me and by the end, it was really fantastic. I got an officer from Eastern Europe with, I think, he was from another county, and he came down, and that again affirmed to them and they so that they have actually got somebody from their community who's a police officer, and it was even much, much better for them it was really, really fantastic, and I think sometimes that's where we fall foul of, in terms of policing, because I think we have people that come live with us and we expect them to know what we do here.

PSE Kulbir Pasricha: Yeah.

Detective Sergeant Irene Rose-Muthanji: and I think that is why it is important if we have got, a diverse network of police officers, because that way we get to learn about the cultures and things like that. So, yeah, my career has moved on, CLO, fantastic role that I had, then from there I went into CP (Child Protection), and I don't think I've looked back since then, and I'm still in the safeguarding world.

PSE Kulbir Pasricha: Excellent. What a varied career you've had. I was listening to every word you were saying, you know with a criminal investigation team where you very passionate around detective work and investigations, the community safety unit where partnership work is absolutely the DNA, it goes right down the middle, the strength of actually our partnerships in Kent is, want to be held up, because actually, it's that working together that is the strength, and when you've moved on to schools roles as well schools liaison officer, you're absolutely right children being the future, and we don't want to criminalise them, and education is key, it plays on the prevention side. When we look at policing on the prevention side, everything you've done is, made a huge difference, made a huge difference to every child that you've come across and to every person you interact with.

I was intrigued to hear about with your role as community liaison officer so, the opportunity you had, not just around education, but using your own personal experiences around cultural norms, and it's absolutely important, yes we know in some cultures these are practiced, and where we know where those where they're prevalent, but it's equally important for us to educate around it as well, and you've used your experiences to improve what we do around violence against women and girls, so yeah it's really powerful listening to all the journey that you've carried out in Kent Police. What about some of those discretionary roles you've been doing Irene, because I know you've been doing a lot behind the scenes, empowering your colleagues and being there for them, because we work as a close policing community.

Detective Sergeant Irene Rose-Muthanji: Yeah, I have been part of now REN (Race Equality Network), for I think all, from the time I joined Kent Police, and I look at it and I think the support I got, because it wasn't, it wasn't a smooth journey. Yes I got here, and after getting here then there is the uphill, which we all have to climb and we all have to be resilient you know that's always something I always say, to be a police officer you have to be resilient, you fall down you get up, you dust yourself off and you say that was that day, today's another day, and let's see what it brings, and yes so, being part of REN now as an executive ambassador, and it is, I can see sometimes where people will have, or I get to hear of people that have got problems, or what they're going through, and I always support people to actually, don't sit with your problem. Your problem, somebody else has been through what you're sitting in, you know, and can, is there as a listener, is there to guide you, signpost you to well-being or to people that can support you. I have been supported massively through my time, and for me if there is anything to leave behind it, you know as my legacy, it will be to support people, because I want to see people not giving up, because I could have given up at one point in my career, I could have given up, not long in the distance, I could have given up, but having that support of the KMEEPA, having the support of a very strong mentor, who I will always ring and I will always speak to and I will always say ‘I'm going through this, what shall I do?’ and they will go ‘right, I'll flip it up to you Irene, what would you do in that situation then?’ and sometimes it needs somebody for you to voice it out, to actually solve it, and so, I will continue supporting people in all that I can, that's not the only thing I do. I also I'm a, I'm a recruitment buddy, and I do give talks. The last talk I give was in Herne Bay, in a school in Herne Bay, and it's and amongst those people, amongst the students that were there, there was about four or five that were actually going to join the police, and they wanted to ask more questions, and find out and I sat back with them, and we talked about it and how they can go about it, and I said “listen if you get to the point where you're ready to apply, this is my contact, catch up with me and apply, and I'll help you in, in all that I can” ‘cause it's nothing as good as having enthusiastic persons that want to come and join the police. It doesn't just have to be through REN, it is a support through, I recently supported a higher rank officer than myself, and it wasn't, it was, I wasn't giving them sympathy, it was more of empathy and guiding them ‘cause sometimes when you're in that position, you don't know where to turn. You might be one of the people that you're full of knowledge but when you actually are in a situation, you don't know who to turn to, you don't know who to talk to, and for me I had heard that this person was going through some problem and I actually I checked on duties and I didn't see them on duties, and I thought where are they, so I rang them and they said ‘oh this has been happening to me’ and I've threw out, I've supported them just by calling, listening, and reminding them about the support network that we've got, other groups welfare you know, contact HR find out what's going on, you know, be brave you know and now I'm really glad that that person is back to work.

PSE Kulbir Pasricha: That's great and a big thank you by the way because I think the work that's done discretionary work that's done behind the scenes, shows the amount of impact it has on our colleagues. You mentioned about the Kent Minority Ethnic Police Association, the current name is obviously Race Equality Network (REN), it's one of the number of staff support associations, networks that we have to support our colleagues, along with working with Human Resources and Health and Wellbeing Services, and you've really hit the nail, and actually yes you need to be resilient, but it's okay not to be okay, and we can reach out and you've done that and you've made a huge difference to that colleague that you've just mentioned as well.

In terms of the discretionary work you've done with Race Equality Network, that's been nearly 20 years, and basically that's been much appreciated because we were one of the first few black police associations in the country, so actually your support throughout the whole journey, and a number of colleagues that you’ve police officers, police staff, volunteers, specials, literally anybody can reach out and actually have you listening, and signpost and giving them guidance as well, and if the experience needs other interventions then obviously working with Federation, Unison and other groups, it's absolutely key to do that.

As a black female, you've been in the organisation now for just under 20 years, and I just wondered if you wanted to share, so how your experience has helped shape, the wider organisation. So, for example you've had the experience within the wider criminal justice systems throughout the courts, where you were treated differently, and you will remember that clearly because you've then, shared those experiences to shape, as part of our understanding around hate crime, what the impact is and basically people have a better understanding as well so, do you just want to talk through that experience, you went through.

Detective Sergeant Irene Rose-Muthanji: Yeah, I think one of the roles I had done, I was a hate crime officer as well, for a period of time, and then coming out from there and in this particular on this particular occasion, I was in Child Protection, and I went to the courts and I had my bags with me, smartly looking. So, got to the courts and the security person at the courts, I was with my colleague, a male colleague, white male colleague, and as we were walking, we got to the barriers and he walked ahead of me, and he went to the because you've got two sides, you've got the public and you've got the professional side, and I'm walking behind him on the professional side, and then the security guy tells me ‘stop’ so I stopped, so I thought ‘oh maybe I went too close’, [laughing]. So, I stopped and so my colleague moved on, went and stood further on, and the guy said to me ‘you need to use the other gate, the other side’ and I said “oh for what reasons? I think I'm on the right gate.” and he says “no, no, no you, all defendants use the other side” and I said “defendants? I'm not a defendant” and that is what he had labelled me, as a defendant because, he thought I was. So, my colleague comes back and says “what's the matter, what's happening?” and I said “no, no, no he's thinks I'm a defendant”, so I'm busy trying to get my warrant card, which I got out and I showed and I showed him and he says “oh I'm really sorry, I'm awfully, awfully sorry” and he just said to me “I've never seen a black officer” and I said “well there's one for you” and that was me. So, later on I think I met the this security person a fair few times after that, and we would joke about it, but it wasn't a joke at the time, and it is sad, it is sad, if somebody looks at you and thinks, that, that's what you are, but yet your male colleague, who is smartly dressed like you were, has just passed or has just been let through, so not a very good moment, but one that will remain in my thoughts.

PSE Kulbir Pasricha: Yeah, and we know with hate crime, it has an impact not just on you personally, but your family, your wider community, and it can actually, and it, people will remember it potentially for a lifetime as well, as you have done. The important thing was there was the education very early on, and also, you've used your experiences when we've done hate crime continuous professional development sessions, and used your experiences to help others, and importantly get the support.

Detective Sergeant Irene Rose-Muthanji: I hope they have.

PSE Kulbir Pasricha: Yeah, so thank you for that, so it just shows what a varied career you've had and what a difference and an impact you've been making, not just in, in the policing world, but with our partners.

Tell me a bit more about what your future goals and aspirations are.

Detective Sergeant Irene Rose-Muthanji: I've been, one of the things I've been doing as well, is I've been sharing MARAC as well which is the multi- agency risk assessment conferences, which are to do with domestic abuse and I find, with my cultural background, when it comes to cases where there is cultural partners, or something is going on, I find I’m more tuned to that so, I have thought, I would love to, I'd love to, move either, and support to do a lot more support, especially around violence against women and girls and things like that, but more importantly, I am hoping to leave a legacy in Kent Police, and it is more, I'd love to be a role model that's one of the things, I'd love to be a role model. I'd love somebody to just look up at me and just think ‘my goodness, I'd love to one day, I'm going to be her, you know I want to be someone like her or anything like that’ so, it is all about leaving legacy.

My next point, I don't know where it's taking me, but I have got a very clear cut into what I want to go into and do. I don't, I don't have 20 years left in policing so, it's a very short time that I've got, but I do have goals and you always have to, you always have to set your goals because that's what makes you wake up in the morning, that's what makes you feel alive, but, if you're happy in the job that you're doing, well fantastic! But, for someone like me who feels maybe you need another change and another move, it is, it is something that I'm looking at, maybe towards community, community engagements and things like that would love that, but I think it's more of leaving a legacy and hopefully to make a difference and that I walked through the Kent College, Kent Police College you know people will know that there was a black female officer one time, and her name was Irene.

PSE Kulbir Pasricha: Let me reassure you, you are a role model, that was the first thing. All the times I've seen the difference you've made, and people can easily give so many testimonies around it. You've not only used your own culture, your lived experiences, your day-to-day knowledge around the operational side, safeguarding expertise, you’ve helped improve us to better understand the needs of the communities, because we are constantly learning and we're only going to get that community trust and confidence if we actually proactively engage, but adapt the platforms and adapt how we do it, but have that understanding of people's cultural norms as it is, and not everybody's going to have that knowledge. So, what you've been sharing, and as you say you want to do more around violence against women and girls, more about helping us improve what we're doing, those opportunities are continuous. So your ideas were taken on board, when we were thinking about you know whether it is around language, whether it is around how we're reaching out to the community, so they actually feel confident in sharing what their concerns are, and reporting very early on, or just getting signpost and support. So, you've been instrumental in that, so you are leaving legacy already, with all the different work you've done, whether it's on a discretionary role or your day-to-day role. In terms of you say, not necessarily 20 years left in policing, you could consider a role as you retire as police officer to come back as a police staff, or there's other opportunities, so really the world is your oyster.

Detective Sergeant Irene Rose-Muthanji: Yeah, absolutely, yeah, absolutely.

PSE Kulbir Pasricha: but you you've definitely got goals and aspirations there which is good.

Detective Sergeant Irene Rose-Muthanji: but I think it's also, I think it's also, one of the things I'd love to see, is a diverse Kent Police. Yeah, that would be fantastic!

PSE Kulbir Pasricha: Yeah, you talked about your times in the different roles, how do you actually manage the emotional impact of some of those cases that stay with you. Any particular case how did you manage that emotional side?

Detective Sergeant Irene Rose-Muthanji: I don't think they go away. I don't think, your thoughts and what has happened because I think we're curious, police you know police staff, police officers, we work in a world where we're very curious into knowing what we did, what have, what has happened, what became of that and people will ask like when I was in in CID you know the patrols officer would come back and say ‘oh what happened to that job I brought in?’ because we want to know that something good has come from something, and I don't think it goes away, but one of the, one of the things it's not so much a case but I remember when I was a schools officer, got called to a school where we had a young boy that had been stealing, from the canteen, and they wanted of course, they wanted a police officer because wearing uniform, go talk to him tell him that is wrong he should not do that. So, went by to that boy and was talking to him and he wasn't saying a peep, nothing, he was very slight, not saying anything was very quiet, and I was talking to him and then we jumped into other topics not necessarily what he was doing, just trying to get him to talk to me, and see if he’ll open up and all I could see, I remember we're in the small room, and all I could see was he kept looking at the clock, kept looking at the clock, and he and he kept asking me ‘Miss, can I go now? and I kept saying “but we haven't finished talking” you know and I continued talking to him, and finally I thought ‘why does he keep looking at the clock?’ and I said to him, “are you, are you meant to be picked up or are you supposed to be somewhere?” you know just to find out why he's looking at the clock, and he turned around to me and he said “no, no, no, no, no it's not that, it's because they would get a loaf of bread brought in”. I didn't quite, I can't remember who used to bring the loaf of bread, and there were other siblings so that's what they used to have for their dinner, so if he wasn't there on time, to have his share, he would not have had anything. So, for me, I could have picked him up and taken him home with me I think, if I could, but for me I just thought ‘my goodness, you know we've got kids out there that just don't have any meals at all’ so went back and I said to him “you'll not miss your meal, just stay there and I will get you something, what would you like?” and he said “oh I did have”, I think he on that particular day, he had taken a bar of chocolate or something like that so, he said he had a bar of chocolate and I said “don't worry about it, I'll get you something else” and went to the canteen got him something and spoke to the headteacher and the SEN or the Senco or the pastoral person and, we got him on breakfast in school in the morning, we got him on school lunches. We managed to speak to the other sibling schools, you know, and they also got some at least they had a hot meal, they had breakfast, and they had a hot meal for the day. The DSL, that is the Designated School Lead for the school, went and spoke to mum, and they then turned around and say to me actually mum didn't know that she can get support, she had lost her job, and didn't know that she can get support, so she used to get somebody to drop off a loaf of bread ‘cause that's what she could afford to feed them. For me, that that has remained in me, I think it's, and sometimes I wonder what became of him, and I hope he's somewhere and he's made life for himself, and the other siblings as well, so it's not so much a case, I think it is, it is what I have come across which was really, really, really sad situation.

PSE Kulbir Pasricha: What have you done around like just making sure you're okay, because we mentioned this before about making sure you're okay as well, what did you do after that one and you came back or came home and?

Detective Sergeant Irene Rose-Muthanji: Well, I think on that particular occasion, I think I remember, I think I got into the car, and I think, I think I cried all the way to the station, when I was returning the car back. I got to the office and my colleague there was a colleague of mine who was there, and I spoke to my colleague, and we sat there, we put the world to right, spoke about it, and I think by the time I was leaving there, I was feeling a little bit better in myself because I had opened up and I didn't keep it in, and we know about policing the thing is you cannot talk to your family about what you see, what you hear, so you keep a lot of things in, but as a family within the policing we can talk to our colleagues, we can talk to our line managers, we can, our you know our senior leadership team are very good as well in listening, we've got, we can tap out to welfare. I know, I know now, when because of my experience, I know when my cup is full, I know when I need to get myself to speak to somebody and just say “I'm not in the best place”, refer myself, I don't have to speak to my line manager, because I can do that by myself. I'm empowered to do that, and that is what people need to understand that they you can you talk to people but you also need to look out for, you can signpost yourself basically to the support that you need, and I think just getting home for me, I leave that at work, but I do get home, but it doesn't completely go away, but with my music on, my R&B on and cooking my food and feeding my children [laughing].

PSE Kulbir Pasricha: The things you enjoy.

Detective Sergeant Irene Rose-Muthanji: The things I enjoy, talking to my friends, I've got, I've got girlfriends around the world, and we usually are on, WhatsApp, has really saved us a lot. We don't have to buy cards anymore; you remember we used to buy cards to charge up, for foreign calls? Don't have to do that, WhatsApp now, so we WhatsApp and we talk and it's nothing to do with policing, I never tell them about what I do or what I come across, they know what I do, but I don't give them stories about what I see, or I hear.

PSE Kulbir Pasricha: I think it depends what role you're doing in policing as well. Staying connected, is absolutely key and it's important to know when you're, whether you call it a cup or your threshold when you need the extra help, because being okay is very, very important but not being okay, it's then reaching out, and there's plenty of support out there.

So, we spoke about, just touched on this a little bit earlier on about having a diverse workforce, so having a workforce that represents our community committees, why do you think that is so important?

Detective Sergeant Irene Rose-Muthanji: I think, I think everywhere you go, people like to see people that look like them, whether it is, and aspire as well. So, for me when I look up in terms of who up there looks like me, who up there has made it, because I want to look up and just think ‘fantastic’.

My mentor has actually, she's done one extra thing for me, she's actually introduced me to a high ranking, or through her, I've come to meet a high-ranking black female in, I think she's just retired very recently, but she was in NHS. So, it is just that idea of seeing people that look like you that, and the culture and learning because nobody knows, I mean I didn't know you know with some communities, where they frown upon, if you walk through their house with our shoes, but by the time you remove your boots you don't realise when you're in uniform but, when you go through cultural people tell you things and people say to you ‘don't shake hands’ you know ‘don't have some people don't have eye contacts’. I know when we were young [laughing], I used, we used to be told “don't look at me”, you know that was a sign of disrespect, then you come to the UK and people say “if you look away, you're hiding something” but, you're not hiding, it's because looking down when I'm talking to somebody of an older person, older than me, I have to look down because it's a sign of respect, I'm not hiding anything. It is a respect to look down, so I think it's teaching people, you know our colleagues that have not had that opportunity and they come across people who they will, they will find outside there and people don't want to talk, not because they don't want to talk maybe there's something there's a barrier, but when you have learned about culture maybe through your colleagues maybe through Independent Advisory Group, when we learn things like that, I think that is what really gives us that wealth of being able to police, and to police the people that are out there.

My mentor mentioned to me a while back and she said, she read somewhere that it's going to take, it will take 50 years at the rate we're going, for policing to reflect the community, 50 years.

PSE Kulbir Pasricha: 50 years that's a long time. What would you say in your view, is the short-term, medium, and long-term goal, so what can we do now?

Detective Sergeant Irene Rose-Muthanji: Now, what we need to do is to make sure that we retain, and we progress, the officers that we've got, that are from the from the diverse, from the underrepresented. We need to make sure that we do that, we hold on to them, the good officers. We don't want to see people leaving, because of something that has happened, because of personality issues, those are minor things compared to their career and we know for a fact that when you join, you join with all this enthusiasm because you want to be a police officer, to then lose you after all that cost that's quite a lot. So, we need to really, really work on the retention and the progression, and when I say progression, we need to see officers of the diverse or underrepresented, climbing up the ladders supporting them to get to there, so that, so that they also can be role models so that people can see you know who we've got, and all that. So, I think that covers kind of now and medium kind of situation.

If we go in long-term, I think we need to go back to grass roots level, really, because I think like schools, communities out there, we need to be talking to them, getting out there. One of the things I remember when I did an attachment or a secondment with Develop You with the Recruitment Team with the diversity, the academy. I got, I think at the time it was when we were looking at the uplift, and I went out with a colleague and we were, we were hitting communities, we were going to churches and the amount of, the, you could see as I went out especially in churches where there were predominantly black people there, it was that shock of ‘you have black officer?’ not realising at all, you know, and people wanting to know more about it. So, what we need to do, is we need to be hitting those communities. We need to, and it's not just a one-time hit, you need to do it often.

I remember we went to an area where, went and I spoke to this lady she was running a community centre, and I said to her what I do, what I have done and you know introduced myself and I said and “I'm now on just Develop You” and she said “so how long are you going to be there for?” and I said “oh, I'm here for two weeks” and she said “so, we're only seeing you for today then?” and I didn't know what to tell her, because that was a fact. I was only being there for one, because what she said was “if you come here every time we've got something that's going on with the young people” with because it wasn't just about race, she, it's a community centre so you can it's very, very diverse with everything that we we're thinking about you know young mothers, single parents you know, or things like that, who would maybe think ‘you know what I can become a police officer, I can go back I can do this’ I can you know but they need somebody to constantly be speaking to them somebody. So, now is really to hit those areas and make sure that we are getting the best from those areas because, that's what we need.

PSE Kulbir Pasricha: Do you now feel, after this conversation do you feel like you are a role model?

Detective Sergeant Irene Rose-Muthanji: I'm on a journey.

PSE Kulbir Pasricha: Okay.

Detective Sergeant Irene Rose-Muthanji: Yeah, I'm on a journey to be that role model. I think I would not want to be, I would not want to be complacent and say ‘yes I am’, but I am on a journey because I really, I really want to see within Kent Police, I want to, yeah that diverseness needs to come in, and we do need that, and as you say we're talking about the characteristics here so, we need all that to come in because we need, we need and it's again, it's that intersectionality, isn't it because we all we're linked into different intersectionality when you look at those characteristics that you know you don't fall on just one, we fall on a few when you circle all those, and I really, I really, as I say, I think I'm on a journey, I am not yet there; I am on a journey.

PSE Kulbir Pasricha: That's great and you're continuously looking at ways to actually make more of a difference as well.

Detective Sergeant Irene Rose-Muthanji: Absolutely.

PSE Kulbir Pasricha: You mentioned recruitment quite a bit and I think the other parts of that very importantly is that retention progression, which you have been retention progression and also, you've been involved in I know, through the staff networks, is the exit interviews, to do the absolute utmost that we can to retain those colleagues that may be considering making a change in their career. So, I want to thank you for that, and I know it's made a difference with people changing their mind and deciding actually I don't need to leave policing because I've become a parent or I'm now a carer.

So, Irene can you share a proud moment in your career with us?

Detective Sergeant Irene Rose-Muthanji: I think it's through various stages, so if I look from the beginning, I think it's my passing out parade because I remember at the time I was married and had my first, my first born was with us, and the look on his face beaming you know seeing me in my number ones and you know the uniform, looking sharp and a few pounds less and up straight and all that and the photograph and I remember, the look on his face, I'll never forget. Don't know why he's not a police officer, but I'll never forget why, you know the look on his face, just that proud thing and it was from him. Then we of course, we took a photograph and sent it to my parents, my parents who have, passed away now, lived in Kenya and I sent the photograph there, and my cousin rang me and said “you're not going to believe this, they have blown your picture” and I said “what’s blown?” and it's not until I went back, and literally I was like, it was the size of, a huge mirror just stuck there, in you know as you walked into the living room, there I was with my, with my boy and with my then partner, my ex-partner, my ex-husband and it became a focal discussion my cousin would say, because every time somebody came in, my parents would sit there and they would say “yes, yes, yes that's her, she's police now in the UK” and they would talk about it and I think, for me, I felt like they were really, really proud so that was the beginning of it and then of course when I passed, I really wanted to be a DC really, really wanted and when I passed my NI, the exam for it, I was like ‘yes’ and there I was, and then of course then onto being a sergeant, passing the exam, you know again that was quite, important for me and I think, it's not so much for me it's the way my children embrace it and it's not, they don't talk to me, it's when they talk to their friends and you know you're not here, you're not supposed to hear and they will say “yes, you never know you never guess my mum's just done this, my mum's got this” and it's, I think I'm proud. I get really, really teary I think it's through them it's not so much for me, but I think those are the moments really that I can talk about and of course when I've been to court and won some cases and got good, you know calling the victim back and telling the victim “you're not going to believe this, they're not coming back, you know they've been sent off now, so start enjoying your life” and I think those are the good times, yeah, those are the times that you remember of course yeah.

PSE Kulbir Pasricha: Definitely, and I could feel the passion that you were, when you were speaking about your parents, I'm sorry to hear about them, but how proud they displayed your picture and also talked about your role in policing in England and Wales and so covering in Kent and how your sons talk about it as well.

So, Irene, tell me one thing that you'd like the public to know more about being a police officer?

Detective Sergeant Irene Rose-Muthanji: Do you know, that is one of the greatest things, I think it's just the fact that no one day, you know is the same, and you hear that from every police officer that you talk to, and it is very, very true. You know you come today, you're met with this, and I've got a colleague who will ring me, another DS, and she will call me and she say “you're not going to believe what I have now?” and it is different things and it is trying to tap on, and it's the idea that you're forever thinking, almost that outside the box, what more can you do, especially where I work, because it's a multi- agency setup and it works beautifully, it's really good, you know working together is really good, but it's just that idea of also, it's not just the people that are signed onto it, it's also what else is out there because there's so many charities out there, that can help people, and people don't realise that, and I think, being a police officer, you come to learn so much that is out there it's really fantastic, and also you do get good friends, very, very good friends and like-minded. You know you get people that kind of are thinking in the same wave length as you, you know, in the whole of the Kent Police family and as I said you do make some very good friends for life, and I know people who have retired and we've got a group together, you know, where we will share happy birthdays, we will share some milestones that are happening to people, anything, we come together when there is something that we need to pray for somebody about, or think about the family something that's going on, and we've kept that in touch, you know, and it doesn't matter, what I like about it is it doesn't matter, it's not one of this where ‘oh you've not spoken to us, you're working, you're too busy’ it is always they know they've retired, but they know we're working, they know the kind of work that we do, it's busy, but we're still together so, I think policing is such a nice, it's very good environment I like it, I like it, I don't think I would trade it.

PSE Kulbir Pasricha: A great way to end that one because you're you've given so many reasons of what people can think about if they're thinking of joining as a police officer actually, all the benefits of it, being creative in their thinking, they can think differently, that's what we want people to do not just to come in and give the same views as everybody else and so that difference is our strength, definitely.

What advice would you give someone who's thinking about joining Kent Police?

Detective Sergeant Irene Rose-Muthanji: Please come in, sign up [laughing], sign up! because especially in, in the current command that we have with our chief, who I've always said he's lovely. It's just that command you know, we've got a very, very, very good senior leadership team that care about people, that have got open door policy, you know you can go and speak to them, and, it has got a good pension [laughing] and you do make good friends and you learn a lot.

PSE Kulbir Pasricha: So, I think you've said that after nearly 20 years’ experience which is fantastic, and the important bit is, you've joined as a police officer, there are opportunities for people to consider joining as a police staff role, which just means the difference is they haven't got policing powers, but there's a lot of jobs that are similar. Whether they want to volunteer as a special constable, whether they want to volunteer in other roles, join the Independent Advisory Group, you mentioned it earlier on, so how they can shape our policies, process, practices as you've done Irene and you've done it very well, and so proud of hearing your story and getting to know you even more, than I did, a few hours ago but thank you very much.

Detective Sergeant Irene Rose-Muthanji: and thank you for being a very good interviewer and drawing out a lot from me, thank you.

PSE Kulbir Pasricha: Thank you for listening. If you have enjoyed this episode follow us on Instagram, X, Facebook and LinkedIn where we'll be posting previews of our upcoming episodes. You can watch this episode by subscribing to our YouTube channel and find out more about the variety of opportunities available by searching Kent Police careers. See you soon.

 

* Positive Action is about creating a level playing field to enable people to compete on equal terms. It describes a range of measures which aim to eliminate unlawful discrimination and promote equality of opportunity.

NIE - The National Investigators' Examination (NIE)’ is designed to identify individuals who can demonstrate the sufficient level of knowledge of law and procedure relevant to a trainee investigator. The NIE is a multiple-choice examination, testing knowledge of law and procedure relevant to the role of a trainee investigator.

CSU – Community Safety Unit. The Community Safety Units (CSUs) deal with local crime and safety issues and have an important role in community policing. They aim to create a safe environment for you by reducing crime and anti-social behaviour.

CLO – Community Liaison Officer - The role of the Community Liaison Officer (CLO) is to develop, maintain and improve positive relationships between Kent Police and diverse communities. Working with diverse communities the CLOs can understand specific needs our communities have and work to providing the most appropriate service. CLOs are also key in supporting our Independent Advisory Group (IAG).

CP – Child Protection. Promote children’s wellbeing and protect them from harm or abuse.

Develop You - provides a framework for accessing development opportunities within Kent Police. Whether developing laterally or for future career aspirations, Develop You provides the opportunity to seek out development tools that best align with individual goals as well as organisational priorities.

REN - Race Equality Network. Promotes awareness, support and education to Kent Police and its staff in areas relating to race and ethnic diversity.

IAG - Independent Advisor Group (IAG) - The IAG are a group of community volunteers who work with Kent Police to improve policing services across the county acting as critical friends.

MARAC – A Multi-Agency Risk Assessment Conference (MARAC) is a local meeting where representatives from statutory and non-statutory agencies meet to discuss individuals at high risk of serious harm or murder because of domestic abuse.

CID – Criminal Investigation department.